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I have had roller coaster relationship with the manosphere.
My immediate reaction was shock, hate, anger and defense against the blatantly 1950′s-esq behavior it promoted.
Then, as I read on, became familiar and open with the concepts I had to admit to myself what was being said was at least true. I had to take a closer look as to how my actions had impaired my ability to obtain a lasting relationship. Further and more importantly, how these actions had ruined the potential success of a courtship in progress.
So, I committed myself to the rules.
I would not hop into bed until a commitment was either in place or imminent. My usual argumentative self would passively listen, see to a mans needs, make sure HE had a shoulder to lean in after a rough day. All this even if my own day had been extremely stressful.
I believed I could enact these “rules” and have a chance at a true long-term loving relationship.
Then, January 1, 2013 passed. For me this date not only signifies the beginning of a new year but is a reminder that my birthday is approaching. This year I turn 30. In two months and 13 days I will be 30 years old.
Reading the posts on the manosphere, those that go on and on and on, proclaiming HOW MUCH my 
“value” will decrease the moment the clock strikes 7:30pm EST on April 3rd, 2013 has left me disheartened. Couple that will my less than wholesome past all I can see is blankness. All I can feel is hopelessness.
If, I did not have enough “value” as a virginal 22-year-old, how can I possibly rake in a man now?
3rd Millenium Men is a blog I follow religiously. I respect the author and his opinion greatly. In a recent post titled, “The Thoughts Process of Horny Men…or…Why They Shut Down Post-Bang“, one thought stream hit dangerously close to home. It states:
“When I’ve been with girlfriends in the past I didn’t take seriously because they put out quickly, I have quickly gone looking for more women, leveraging off the action I already have. However, when I start dating a girl I can see long term potential with, I am completely focused and not interested in other women.
So what should women do to ensure guys stay with them longer term?
First and foremost, not put out!! At least until you are a long way into an exclusively committed relationship, or better yet, married. Keep the buildup of sexual tension happening. Guys will think there is something magical about you, and will stick around for a long time chasing that.”
Okay, I’m no fool, I know consciously that this is a fact of the “dating process”. However, it is just not ME. I personally, honestly, do not understand how the beginning of a relationship can continue to influence it once a couple has gotten to know each other. Once the man realizes, whatever happened at the start is not relevant because she is still there. She wants to be with him. She truly and steadfastly cares for him.
Using sex or withholding sex, isn’t this something men complain about? They get mad about? It is like a biological double standard. They resent us for HAVING and USING this power but are simultaneously drawn to it.
According to the “experts” if I don’t buck up, strap on my chastity belt, become a doting “feminine” (whatever that means) woman soon I am SOL. Doomed to live a life of solitude or settle for a beta. Live a life of resentment or live a life alone, hmmm, those are some pretty bleak options.
What defines a man of value? A beta, what about him is bad? That he is kind, that he isn’t assertive, manipulative, shy? I admit I have mainly been attracted to alpha’s, however, beta’s have crept in. There was something about their genuine authenticity that was appealing. Is marrying a beta a death sentence? Perhaps I could bring out the alpha in HIM?
All that notwithstanding that is not my issue. I HAVE been in this situation. I HAVE rushed into bed with someone too soon and it DID affect how he saw our relationship. While we became serious that I slept with home right away was always in the back of his mind.
Perhaps this is all true for some if not most women. I just so happens not to be for me. I can give up a lot for a man, I can change certain behaviors, but where do I draw the line? How do let myself be “me” without losing “him“?
Can women be both assertive and submissive?
Is being an intellectual woman the same as a dominant woman? How can I convey that in love and in relationships I am doting, caring, feminine and utterly and completely loyal – if shown I can trust a man with these precious qualities?
Do I have a chance at experiencing romantic bliss?
~ the audacious amateur blogger
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I was a late bloomer too. I was scrawny and flat, ignored by men until after high school graduation. In fact, if I had any dates or boyfriends before age 22…it was because I pursued them…. and then suddenly (not trying to brag here), I couldn’t keep up with the men approaching me and it has been that way ever since. I actually get asked out a lot by 20-25 year olds, but perhaps that is because they all think I am their age lol.
Hahaha. Nice! Hey… I’ve def gone younger, also bc you said they usually think I’m their age or maybe a year or two older. I find younger men, older men.. In terms of “maturity”, it’s person specific not age specfic.
“A beta, what about him is bad? That he is kind, that he isn’t assertive, manipulative, shy? I admit -I have mainly been attracted to alpha’s-, however, beta’s have crept in. There was something about their genuine authenticity that was appealing. Is marrying a beta a death sentence? Perhaps I could bring out the alpha in HIM?”
do you see the contradictions in this statement. fact is, a woman can marry and commit to a beta, but during ovulation she is likely to cheat on him with an alpha to access the more dominant genetic matierial for her offspring.
fact is, EVERY red pill woman i know who’s been married said she married an alpha that went beta that she lost attraction for. i’ve had SEVERAL female readers admit to this.
women are attracted to assertive, domainant, strong men. the more you fight it, the more likely you’ll fall victim to it.
30 is NOT a death sentence in the SMP, but you WILL have fewer options, and most of the men that are going to go for you are going to beta’s. probably divorcee’s with kids.
i’ve told women, if you’re in you 30′s and attractive….fine. no kids, even better. one kid…..we’ll see. 2 or moer kids…ZERO commitment. i am NOT taking all that baggage on.
Lol. Baggage, yea kids… For men and women are an issue.
Alphas can get divorced to no?
I’m not saying betas are good or bad Just speculating, basically tried to evoke responses like yours. Tryin to gain a better understanding
I appreciate the insight. It’s true about the ovulation thing but … It’s not like every woman married to a beta is cheating. It’s so rare. But that is usually when It happens
again. i’m commenting based on what women have stated on my blog regarding their marriages.
i could never get by being some chest thumping asshole 24-7. people tend to think of alpha and beta as a switch, when in fact it’s more like a volume knob. 90% of the time i’m on beta idle- laid back, making a joke, being aloof.
when i need to go alpha, it’s usually in the form of NOT letting someone take advantage of my “being nice”. where most men fuck up is by calling out guys, but giving in to women who conatanly take advantage of them.
an alpha simply calls EVERYONE out that tries to get over on him. bet’a and “nice guys” can do VERY well with women. they just need to NOT be a doormat to woman. thusly, they keep the woman attracted to him.
totally respect this, but not EVERY guy is like the dudes in the manosphere. look at donald trump, for example. he is the most alpha of all the alphas and he married someone in their mid 30′s. he could get any hot twenty-something he wanted.
Is D. Trump a true Alpha – manosphere boys? I mean the comb over isn’t exactly sexy. Yea the power thing is.. I dunno… aaaaand he got like 8 kids.
He married a super model (actually a few, till they got too old then dumped them for another, younger super model) who was like 31 or something…
See http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/is-it-fair/ for M3′s in depth analysis. Some interesting material here
You two should get a room!
Why compromise? Instead, be with someone who likes who YOU are.
There are plenty of men out there who don’t like rules girls. I talk about the rules in my classes and the guys for the most part don’t like them.
Most guys actually aren’t like those of the manosphere, anyway.
Here´s my advice, as a 45 years old MGTOW/former wannabe PUA. (translation: divorced old fart).
You´re thirty y.o., so men know you´re no longer a virgin. The men you´re likely to meet have also been around, if your target demographic is men beween the ages of 35-40 (if you´re hitting on younger men, you´re wasting your time IMHO, as I see from you previous post that your biological clock just went into panic alarm mode-snooze won´t work anymore).
So it doesn´t matter if you sleep with them on the third date or after marriage. Just be classy.
You should be realistic as to what to expect: you may still land an Alpha, but probably not the type of guy you´ve been chasing since your first period. Bad boys Alphas are out of the question. When I think of Alpha I think of Sean Connery, John Wayne, Bogart ec: my idea of Apha is closer to the old definition of a “man´s man”. Men other men look up to, natural leaders, not necessarily the type of man today´s women pine for.
Bad boys/Alphas roissy-style are deep down what zoologists call “sneaky fuckers”, i.e. lesser males in the pack who take advantage of females they´re not entitled to according to the established hierarchy through deceit and “false signalling” (game).
Whay you´re looking is marriage material, not “thirty shades of Grey”. Also keep away from true betas, as they´re usually bitter and unreliable. (true betas= upper betas, lesser men with no game skills).
Be honest; say something to the effect that you´ve had “lotsa cockas” but that you want to raise a family. You should be wiling to sign a prenup, and stick to your husband for at least 20 years. Men who want a family want a faithful wife, and reassurance that you´ll raise his kids with him, not on your own once you´re sick of him, as so many do. Be wiling to exit the work-force and be a homemaker. That should attract more men than your rack or other physical traits we know will wane. Learn how to cook. Improve your skills with children before having them. I´s a ery demandng job.
Not that you your wedding vows should read: “Having ridden the Alpha Cock Carroussel long and hard, dear family and friends, I hereby renounce all cocks but your own, my dear husband, for the sake of our progeny, till menopause do us part”, but close enough!
Good luck, it´s pretty rough out there.
Good luck with that. I guess it depends in the culture of the country that you live in, NO TRUE alpha (accomplished and secure men with experience with the ladies) will choose as his wife some “experienced” woman. Deep down, men are not as stupid as you think, and masculine men know perfectly the disadvantages of marrying someone with a higher count than 1 or 2.
@Ashley, facts not opinions matter and if your friends experience is similar to the ones I’ve met in real life, I can assure those poor bastards (the husbands of the former whores) are having/will have a sad, sad marriage (nagging, bitching, infidelity and “maybe” no divorce). The only reason to marry is to offer care for a newborn, and even at that point, involving the government is foolish.
This is almost the same predicament I am in with the manosphere. I discovered the sphere about 6 months ago and have been trying to be patient, read the blogs, and try to understand the logic of it. A lot of does make sense but some of their ideas I just don’t see me getting behind ever, like the archaic views on how men and women supposedly “should be and behave” to attract the opposite sex because I see contradictions of their claims every day. They say “don’t ever bed hop or no man will want to be with you seriously,” but I don’t ever see men our age that really care all that much about a woman’s past, unless they are super insecure and can’t stand the thought of their woman being with anyone else. Most men, from my experience and observations, expect that an almost 30 year old woman has had a few fun romps between the sheets, as long as she isn’t like that during their relationship and is free of any stds. Maybe because they know they have as well and it would only be hypocritical of them to expect a future wife to be damn near virginal. How else would all of the supposed super sluts from my graduating class all be married now, and to guys from high school that damn well know all about their sexual history? It must not be that big of a deal to them.
We are all human and we all do things that are maybe less than ideal and perfect and I say that anyone can behave exactly how they want and plenty of people will love them for who they are. I don’t think anyone should value the opinion of a future or potential partner so much that they lose themselves on the way to getting a spouse.
My advice- don’t follow any advice… If you are sensible enough, you will never miss to see love in the eyes of your man (if it is there) .. If you don’t sense it then you can move on depending on your preference… you don’t need to change yourself to get a man…
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I like the honesty of your blog.
You were at the peak of your sexual market value when you were an 18-22 year-old virgin. If you had leveraged your power properly at that point, you probably could have gotten marriage and children from almost any alpha male you wanted. Unfortunately, no one ever showed you how to use that power. You squandered your virginity, youth, and beauty on alpha men who did not care for you.
You will never secure an alpha male for long-term commitment. Alpha males do not marry women like you. Sex always, commitment never. Your past does not make you a bad person; it just makes you an unsuitable wife and mother (for an alpha).
If you are serious about a husband and kids, you need to begin provider hunting immediately. It sounds like you are still relatively hot, so you still have a chance to land a solid beta man for your soft landing. Stop dating alphas and find a beta. That is your only chance for LT commitment.
I was at my fertility peak from 21-24. Should I or anyone in first world counties marry at 18?? I couldn’t even pick a major at 18!
That is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. Maybe in bumblefuck north Dakota but where you graduate HS and that’s the end of your life.
In cities avg age of marraige, men considering marraige are 30′s and think of 22 year olds at play things but too immature to marry.
That blanket statement is just like Victorian era. People lived till 45/60 then now we go to 80. You gotta spend 60 years w this person now, not 25 anymore
There’s quite a bit of contradictory advice on the manosphere. You have to realize that not all “manospherians” are coming from the same place. Some men were “natural Alphas”, some men were betas that became alphas, some men were divorced and stripped bare of dignity, resources, children, etc… some men were never married and want to avoid the pitfalls that can come with marriage. There’s an undercurrent of resentment present on some blogs and it easily manifests itself in many unfortunate ways. Many blogs, such as 3rd Millennium Men offers a healthy look at gender relations.
As far as “Alpha or Beta” goes, there is no strict, hardline dichotomy that determines who is an alpha male or who is a beta male. There are certain traits that alphas possess more than betas, but the definition isn’t always clear cut. Where people run into trouble, I think is trying to assign morality to an alpha male. The alpha male is not good or bad, he just *is*. There are alpha males all across the range of the morality spectrum. An alpha male doesn’t have to be a manipulative, evil guy. If you think that’s the case, you’ve been meeting the wrong alpha males.
I also disagree with Red Pill Game’s assertions. I disagree that your highest SMV value was at 18-21. Very few people get married at that age and if they do, they are much more likely to divorce due to life inexperience and the growth that often accompanies one’s twenties. I disagree that you are doomed to have a “beta male” shrub as a husband. I have found that guys with high partner counts tend to overlook partner counts in females because they don’t feel as if they were cheated. If you marry a beta that has only been with 2 chicks, he will feel inferior compared to you, and thus – more resentful. Due to him being beta, you will also resent him.
It’s funny you say that you are turning thirty soon. It is common manosphere knowledge that a woman hears the incessant biological clock ticking at this age. At least you now know what you need to do. You need to stop fucking around and find someone who wants what you do – marriage. I feel very sorry for women who live now because they receive a lot of contradictory messages about sexuality. From friends, media, parents, etc. It’s hard to filter out what is garbage and what is truth. What’s truth is this: you know that it isn’t about *you*. Too many females today think it’s just about *them*. Well, it’s not. Marriage is about *us*. Two people. That’s why men and women owe it to themselves to be the best they can be mentally, physically, spiritually, etc.
I don’t really have much more advice for you except to just put your head down and figure out what you want. That’s the only way.
Good luck.
Sir Allan makes some good points, tho i will disagree with his assertion that high SMV is not 18-21. SMV stands for sexual market value.. MMV is marriage market value.
And i defy you to find any guy who will turn down blanket sex with an 18 year old vs. a 30 year old. Outliers aside, SMV 18 trumps. May be dumb as a post, but we’re not talking MMV here. I don’t care if she puts a p&b jelly sandwich into the dvd player.. she’s got youthful glow, vitality, health and indicators of fertility that scream ‘do me’. It’s nature, i’m sorry if anyone’s upset. Biology. Always. Wins.
The other area i disagree is assertion that now that you hear your bio block ticking that “You need to stop fucking around and find someone who wants what you do – marriage.”
Do you know what this sounds like to men? Specifically me speaking here.. it’s a desperation call.. and believe me, *me, myself and i* do not have any plans of being any woman’s last chance express and baby butter factory. This is where women have been led astray, that they can simply gallivant around throughout their 20′s and boom once they hit 30, some kind decent person will just drop from the sky to put a ring on her, pump her full of c*cksnot and pop out a kid on command. Why? Because you go grrrll, you too can have it all!
I don’t mean to disparage or make you feel any more depressed than already so. But i’m being straight up honest with you from my end. Hitting 30 ain’t the end of the road by a long shot. I can have a relationship with an older woman without issue. But i would NEVER hook up with a woman in her 30′s who is expecting me to knock her up 6 mnths after dating her because the clock is ticking louder than the tell tale heart. *I* need at minimum 5 years with someone before i’d feel committed to having kids. And at 36 myself, that would make me 41, and the wife 35. Sorry, i don’t feel like it anymore.
And that leads to the one bit of advice of his i agree with the most:
“Too many females today think it’s just about *them*. Well, it’s not. Marriage is about *us*. Two ”
And when you’re scrambling because you’re in it to beat out the bio clock.. you most certainly aren’t thinking about him.. it’s ALL about you.
You need to find an alpha who wont care about your number but beta enough to commit to a girl who doesn’t feel the need to change on being a strong assertive woman? (whatever that means) Beta’s don’t mind strong and assertive, they’d rather the women wear the pants, make decisions, do the leading. Alpha’s.. not so much. Too strong, too assertive, too much headache and he’s off to the more pleasant women.
http://www.returnofkings.com/3069/american-women-simply-cant-compete
“I never said it would be easy .. I only said it would be the Truth.” ~ Morpheus
I know *MY* SMV was not its highest at 18. I was a late bloomer, didn’t get boobs until 16. Had no ass or hips at 18. Around 19, I suddenly started filling in in all the right places, and finally considered myself “fully developed”. Sure, I was probably fertile at 16-18 (although, who knows, I often skipped periods), but I sure as hell didn’t look it. I didn’t really get hit on until 19, then the compliments started exploding. I’m 20 now, most of my friends look better now than they did at 18. So I’m not sure if women are fully developed and look “the best” at 18 and 19. I don’t know if this matters, either. I’m still trying to make sense of it.
There is no “sense”. Everyone develops at a different rate. my best friend got her period at 9 years old. Her mom hadn’t even TOLD her about periods yet.. she freaked. She was the tallest and had the biggest boobs in 4th grade. Now, shes the shorty with a nice b cup.
The bell curve baby. There are always people in the curve, always outliers. There is no absolutes, no “everyone” in nature.
Anything you do/act/feel that isn’t authentically YOU (including trolling sex ahead of his bite until he’s lured into commitment to get it) will desconstruct eventually…you want that to happen after you’re married with a child? I rather doubt it! Be Who You Are, girl… the right Man can handle that.
The better question to be asking: Who Am I? What do I want from intimacy, and is this guy a sip of water on the wrong trail or the oasis where I can survive?
Act accordingly.
There is nothing wrong with being a strong, assertive woman to me at all. There is nothing wrong with “putting out” early. When a woman put out never influenced how I felt about her or the relationship. How a woman was as a whole and how we grew together is what affected the duration of the relationship. The thought that men would de-value a woman/relationship because of when they got sex bothers me. Bothers me even as I know that I have known men like this.
I say be you all of the time. Don’t draw a line and change. I know that change happens within a relationship, but as long as that change happens organically, not forced, I am all for change. If anyone is thinking “what do I need to change,” that says to me that the other person does not value you. This is long…I think I will put my thoughts in a blog. The gist, don’t change to keep someone, be strong, be assertive, be you.